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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Sep 2008 : 16:31:49
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I've read several references to a connection between Eilistraee's faith and the Lythari (basically good elven werewolves for those unfamiliar with the term). Has this ever been covered in gaming material at all?
For that matter, did any of the 3.5 books cover the lythari even slightly? I remember some mention of them in Races of Faerun, I seem to recall that not everyone agreed with what was said there.
Thanks for any help providing lythari references.
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Jimbobx
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
109 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2008 : 17:45:53
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Elaine Cunningham's Daughter of the Drow features a Lythari character albeit briefly.
Mark Sehestedt's Frostfell features what I assume are Lythari heavily throughout the novel.
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Rilyetan's Retreat
Jimbob's Waterdeep Journal
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2008 : 01:29:44
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Most of the lythari sources include Monsters of Faerūn, Races of Faerūn, Elves of Evermeet, Elaine's novels and some of her compiled replies made here at Candlekeep.
The Monstrous Compendium Annual Vol. 4 is also useful, as is 2e's Demihumans of the Realms.
No doubt, Dagnirion's Elves of Faerūn already provided summaries of the relevant lythari lore in each source. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2008 : 19:57:38
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| I know there is a Lythari in a short story, by Elaine, about Lireal, but I don't remember one in the series. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2008 : 20:02:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
I know there is a Lythari in a short story, by Elaine, about Lireal, but I don't remember one in the series.
There was one in the Liriel series (in Windwalker). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 14:49:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
I know there is a Lythari in a short story, by Elaine, about Lireal, but I don't remember one in the series.
There was one in the Liriel series (in Windwalker).
And they're the same one |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2008 : 00:23:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
For information on the Lythari, see Elves of Faerūn.
Where is this book at? I think this is the first I've heard of it. |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2008 : 01:07:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Where is this book at? I think this is the first I've heard of it.
I believe Ardashir is probably referencing the netbook that you can find information about here.
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2008 : 07:15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
I know there is a Lythari in a short story, by Elaine, about Lireal, but I don't remember one in the series.
There was one in the Liriel series (in Windwalker).
Even though the Sage already mentioned "Elaines novels" I think I should add that "Silver Shadows" is a whole novel about the "Lythari problem in Tethyr". |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 03:03:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Jimbobx
Elaine Cunningham's Daughter of the Drow features a Lythari character albeit briefly.
Mark Sehestedt's Frostfell features what I assume are Lythari heavily throughout the novel.
They are lythari, but there are some notable differences between his lythari and Elaine's. The lythari of Frostfell have a totally different culture, are tied to their homeland, and apparently have lost the ability to use "the Doors to the Gate". |
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 13:50:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Even though the Sage already mentioned "Elaines novels" I think I should add that "Silver Shadows" is a whole novel about the "Lythari problem in Tethyr".
Not quite. Silver Shadows does include lythari, but it is mostly about the green elves of the Wealdath Forest of Tethyr. Arilyn Moonblade does persuade the reclusive lythari to assist their green elf cousins, but for creatures given a title role in the novel, we see very little of them.
And no, I have never heard of a connection between the Ly'Tel'Quessir and Eilistraee, although that does not mean there isn't one - it simply has not come up in any publication I have read. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 14:11:07
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| I don't know that there's a "racial connection" between Eilistraee and the lythari, but one particular lythari (Thorn) is known to follow the Dark Maiden. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 18:29:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't know that there's a "racial connection" between Eilistraee and the lythari, but one particular lythari (Thorn) is known to follow the Dark Maiden.
I figured it as, lythari are elvish werewolves, werewolves are symbolically linked to the moon, and Eilistraee is the elf goddess of the moon and hunting as well as good drow, so therefor she has a connection with the lythari and vice-versa. |
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Iluvrien
Acolyte
United Kingdom
49 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 20:11:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Jimbobx
Mark Sehestedt's Frostfell features what I assume are Lythari heavily throughout the novel.
Mr Sehestedt's Lythari also seem to be major players in the Realms of War short story "Mercy's Reward".
Apologies if this was already covered. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 21:12:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't know that there's a "racial connection" between Eilistraee and the lythari, but one particular lythari (Thorn) is known to follow the Dark Maiden.
I figured it as, lythari are elvish werewolves, werewolves are symbolically linked to the moon, and Eilistraee is the elf goddess of the moon and hunting as well as good drow, so therefor she has a connection with the lythari and vice-versa.
Sehanine is the elven moon goodess. And lythari are not werewolves -- they lack the hybrid form, and they can only pass the changing ability onto others by use of a ritual. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 21:36:36
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Actually, that changed in 3e, and Rich confirmed it many years ago. They do have a hybrid form, according to the sourcebooks for 3e and they are were's.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Sehanine is the elven moon goodess. And lythari are not werewolves -- they lack the hybrid form, and they can only pass the changing ability onto others by use of a ritual.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 21:58:35
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http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20020503a
"Portfolio: Song, beauty, dance, swordwork, hunting, moonlight"
Not quite a moon goddess, but clearly associated with the light of the moon, which is what effects were.
Also Eilistraee has been named Moon Maiden, though one might argue that was printed because it slipped past the content Editor. |
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 22:39:22
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If you wish t infer a connection and make that fact in your home campaign, that is fine. But the published Realmslore doesn't say so explicitly.
Source on hybrid form, Kuje? I trust your grasp of lore, but I recall the hybrid issue settling out differently.
And they control their own transformation at will, I think, whether born as lythari or attaining that state through ritual.
As an aside, here's a question: Do you suppose the ritul magically confers the silver-haired coloration upon elves of other subracial heritage who are made into lythari? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 22:55:23
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As I said, Rich confirmed it so many years ago. No, I don't have the post any more because after 8 years, it's gone in one of the designer threads.
How Races of Faerun clearly says they are elven werewolves and it says nothing about that they are an exception to having a hybrid form. They are lumped in with the Lycan chapter and that chapter discusses hybrid forms.
However, Monsters of Faerun also says they are elven werewolves but that book, at least, says no hybrid form. :)
Myself, I always stick to the 2e lore, which also said no hyrbid but thats me.
Races's text on page 142 is: "In Faerun, the following kinds of lycan are common, bats, bears, boars, cats, crocs, rats, sharks, tigers, wolves, and the elven lythari. Each of these can transform from its normal humanoid form to that of a animal or a hybrid form."
So, it seems pretty clear to me, 3.5e lumped the lythari into having a hyrbid.
quote:
Originally posted by Vangelor
Source on hybrid form, Kuje? I trust your grasp of lore, but I recall the hybrid issue settling out differently.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 22 Sep 2008 22:59:13 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 01:17:52
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I still keep to the no hybrid form if and when I use lythari in my campaign, regardless of what the current lore says.
I mean... considering the fact that the lythari didn't originally have this hybrid form, and the details that surround their brand of shape-changing, in that it is only passed on by ritual or by procreation, I'm still of the mind that they not true lycanthropes. They are, simply, elves who have the ability to transform into wolves.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 01:25:09
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I still keep to the no hybrid form if and when I use lythari in my campaign, regardless of what the current lore says.
I mean... considering the fact that the lythari didn't originally have this hybrid form, and the details that surround their brand of shape-changing, in that it is only passed on by ritual or by procreation, I'm still of the mind that they not true lycanthropes. They are, simply, elves who have the ability to transform into wolves.
I agree. I think calling them weres in 3E was done for ease of classification, more than anything else.
Besides, if lythari are considered lycanthropes, then so should be song dragons and swanmays. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 15:26:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I still keep to the no hybrid form if and when I use lythari in my campaign, regardless of what the current lore says.
Me too. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 15:47:45
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| I also want to note that I don't know of a single documented case of a lythari having the hybrid form. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 16:34:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I also want to note that I don't know of a single documented case of a lythari having the hybrid form.
I was thinking this as well, but could not figure out the words to do so, thank you Wooly. I have been thinking about creating a Lythari race closer to that in the novels and less like an elf with the werewolf template attached. |
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Eilistraee and the Lythari
