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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3285 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  06:13:00  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080807a
-The Harpers are disbanded.
-High Lady Alustriel of Silverymoon is DEAD!


BRIMSTONE

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep

Edited by - Brimstone on 07 Aug 2008 06:19:08

Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2131 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  06:28:34  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Before even reading it, just form your comments, "WTF!?" Will read it at work tomorrow.

Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane

* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives

My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Fire Wraith
Acolyte

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  07:37:18  Show Profile  Visit Fire Wraith's Homepage Send Fire Wraith a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is it, in all honesty, surprising? It is after all only a reasonable conclusion that over the span of 100 years she would at least have retired from the throne in favor of a successor - and that's assuming she found a way to prolong her life. I might suggest that she faked her death (after all, it wouldn't be the first time such a thing had been done - I recall specific instances of Laeral, Khelben, and others doing so over the course of FR history). The more obvious answer is, of course, that without Mystra's power, she can't prolong her life.

This of course doesn't mean she's not dead, gone, and buried in the official storyline, merely a suggestion for those who wish to play in the 15th century setting and still make use of her.

As for the Harpers being disbanded, this comes as a bit of a larger shock, though I imagine it fits in with the professed design intention to forcefully focus away from NPC groups that are capable of solving problems, and thus make the PCs the only true heroes of the story by default. The remnant of the Harper Hold, as described in the excerpt, seems to be geared more as someone who might offer aid and assistance to the PCs, but is a 'stay at home sort' that doesn't go out and fight the bad guys actively.
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe

Germany
657 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  08:45:14  Show Profile  Visit Ayunken-vanzan's Homepage Send Ayunken-vanzan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Divine roll call:

Mystra - dead

Mielikki, Oghma, Silvanus, Sune, Tymora - living

Malar - living, but reduced in status

"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail

"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl

FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  09:53:38  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No Harpers either? Not much left then.
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arry
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
317 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  12:06:49  Show Profile Send arry a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not in MY Realms they're not!
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe

USA
509 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  12:31:17  Show Profile  Visit RodOdom's Homepage Send RodOdom a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's nothing here that makes the North more exciting than it was. The FR4e speedometer has only two levels : "5 m.p.h." and "crash and burn".
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  12:42:08  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
the article is awful

so Twilight Hall is destroyed, it seems
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe

Greece
581 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  13:01:59  Show Profile  Visit BARDOBARBAROS's Homepage Send BARDOBARBAROS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
if you are playing fourth edition all these happen!!

BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!


"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  13:21:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It really doesn't make sense that the Harpers were disbanded... Not only does it reduce many roleplaying possibilities and remove adventure hooks, but it also goes against a bit of earlier info. Rich Baker had said the Moonstars were being rolled back into the Harpers, which implies that the Harpers would still be around.

I didn't really like this article. The Harpers being gone really draws vacuum, and I don't like that the dwarves pulled out of the Luruar alliance.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Bakra
Senior Scribe

628 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  13:39:41  Show Profile Send Bakra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Umm the Harpers are still around, they disbanded then reformed hence the title in the box called, “Harpers of Luruar”
Yes I’m aware they are not the harpers of old; but, if you want to keep them around then follow Arrys suggestion.
As for the Moonstars, hmm, maybe they seceded again from the harpers or ‘faked’ the disbanding and took the organization off the radar. The Moonstars could find it amusing that a new set of harpers have popped up again and are planning accordingly.
I have found no reference to Twilight Hall in the article.
I think we could learn more once the next Blackstaff novel comes out.

I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  14:13:36  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080807a
-The Harpers are disbanded.
-High Lady Alustriel of Silverymoon is DEAD!


BRIMSTONE



I hate the new Realms.

I think it's kinda funny that the Kingdom of Many Arrows isn't so friendly after all.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  14:19:08  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by arry

Not in MY Realms they're not!



Seconded.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  14:50:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
...And the Sellplague, which flows around areas of strong mortal magic, apparently didn't flow around Silverymoon's mythal all that much.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  15:00:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When asked about the Harpers, Rich Baker said they were still around.

Shows you how much these guys talk to each other at WotC.

I give up... I tried to like 4e FR... I really did, but if Ed wrote any of that 'returned Abeir' stuff from yesterday's excerpt, he has either lost his touch, or they butchered everything he wrote in editting.

I didn't even bother reading today's after yesterday's major disappointment - the Chosen I can understand, even if I didn't agree with the reasoning, but why the Harpers?

The Harpers were the second most important factor that made the Realms the Realms (right after the Weave). This isn't FR; this is schlock.

I haven't been over to the Paizo site in almost two weeks - time for me to go back there and see what's what. Anything has to be better then this Drivel.

Maybe I'll start a circa 1980 Runequest game up....

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Aug 2008 15:10:41
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe

Germany
657 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  15:04:57  Show Profile  Visit Ayunken-vanzan's Homepage Send Ayunken-vanzan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We should be glad that Silverymoon is not Halruaa, another area with strong magic where the Spellplague had a little problem with flying around ...

"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail

"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl

FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads

Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 07 Aug 2008 15:19:17
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
618 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  15:08:22  Show Profile  Visit Uzzy's Homepage Send Uzzy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nicely done, WoTC. Truly awesome work there. I must applaud them for the manner in which they've systematically destroyed everything that was good and unique about the Realms, and still have Ed working for them.

Very impressive.
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe

USA
509 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  15:12:25  Show Profile  Visit RodOdom's Homepage Send RodOdom a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  15:17:36  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wonder how Ed can look at himself in the mirror these days.

I left Greyhawk for the Realms because of its uniqueness, and now all of that is gone. This is just generic fantasy pulp, with NOTHING setting it apart. I might as well switch back to GH; at least it doesn't cause the gorge to rise in my gullet.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan

We should be glad that Silverymoon is not Halruaa, another area with strong magic where the Spellplague had a little a problem with flying around ...

At this point, I wish the whole damn planet had blown up...

Might as well have... there's nothing left but Drizzt, a crazy old hermit calling himself Elminster, and the name of the setting...

which won't even appear on a logo, mind you...

HOW did they manage to convince themselves ANY of this was a good idea? Are they truly that conceited?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Aug 2008 15:18:26
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
348 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  15:47:59  Show Profile  Visit Na-Gang's Homepage Send Na-Gang a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I wonder how Ed can look at himself in the mirror these days.




Harsh much?
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  16:00:50  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now, now, Uzzy and Markustay,
Ed DOESN'T "work for them." Never has. He submits articles like all the rest of us "gamers out there." And has no control over what gets changed and edited. And he writes novels for them, though I think the 3rd Knights book is his last contract.
I admire the guy for staying involved and trying to salvage what he can for us.
BB
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  16:29:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Na-Gang

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I wonder how Ed can look at himself in the mirror these days.




Harsh much?



I agree, that was overly harsh.

We know Ed fought against the Sellplague. And we know that legally speaking, WotC doesn't even have to pay attention to him. I don't see any reason to blame Ed for what WotC has done to his setting.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  17:03:27  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indeed. Stepping in as a Moderator for the moment...

Let's try to keep the tone a little more civil, eh? There's really no need for such comments.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2131 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  17:10:02  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I hate how they seem to be giving the Chosen of Mystra quiet deaths. At least Khelben went out with a bang. I believe each one that died deserves a whole novel devoted to their glorious end. Not a minor mention here and there.

Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane

* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives

My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Ladejarl
Seeker

Norway
55 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  17:38:51  Show Profile  Visit Ladejarl's Homepage Send Ladejarl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

...And the Sellplague, which flows around areas of strong mortal magic, apparently didn't flow around Silverymoon's mythal all that much.



It's called designer-induced selective flow, or SISF.


"There should be much less violence, and more nudity and kinkiness in the world."
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Ladejarl
Seeker

Norway
55 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  17:49:23  Show Profile  Visit Ladejarl's Homepage Send Ladejarl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by arry

Not in MY Realms they're not!



Seconded.



Motion passed, case closed.

Some how I have the impression that a lot of people will walk this path.

"There should be much less violence, and more nudity and kinkiness in the world."
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  20:05:46  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Na-Gang

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I wonder how Ed can look at himself in the mirror these days.




Harsh much?



I agree, that was overly harsh.

We know Ed fought against the Sellplague. And we know that legally speaking, WotC doesn't even have to pay attention to him. I don't see any reason to blame Ed for what WotC has done to his setting.



Actually, everything Ed says, posts or writes is considered *official* FR canon, unless contradicted by any TSR/WoTC publication (it's in his original contract, I think). In that sense, they have to play attention to what he says, although, of course, they always can use their legal right to "retcon" anything he says. But it isn't enough that RB or any other WoTC designer says that "No, that might be what Ed thinks, and this is how it is in real FR canon..." -- it has to be published in an official product.

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  20:19:56  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Anyone else notice that they confused Everlund's architecture and layout with that of Sundabar? I definitely think that Sundabar was described as a circular walled city with its cobbled streets like "spokes of a wheel"?

I just realized something -- those maps look a lot like satellite photos (such as those you can view in GoogleEarth). In fact, it looks like the author took a few such photos and used Photoshop's 'Stamp'-tool to create "realistic" maps (Markus will probably agree with me here). It is pretty evident if you take a look at forested areas...

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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Fire Wraith
Acolyte

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  20:22:11  Show Profile  Visit Fire Wraith's Homepage Send Fire Wraith a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM

I hate how they seem to be giving the Chosen of Mystra quiet deaths. At least Khelben went out with a bang. I believe each one that died deserves a whole novel devoted to their glorious end. Not a minor mention here and there.



Agreed. If you're going to kill off major characters, give their story a proper cathartic ending. The longer they've been a major character, the more this is true. As much as I dislike Khelben being killed off, at least Steven Schend was able to do his character justice by giving him a fitting end. On the other hand, though, it needs to make sense, rather than feeling like a deus ex machina command from on high to kill off the character - which has been the case with a few other deaths, of both gods and mortals, of late (in my opinion).

And dear gods, whatever you do, don't just announce the death as a footnote, or worst of all in the prelude text of an adventure.
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1705 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  21:05:34  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra

Umm the Harpers are still around, they disbanded then reformed hence the title in the box called, “Harpers of Luruar”
Yes I’m aware they are not the harpers of old; but, if you want to keep them around then follow Arrys suggestion.
As for the Moonstars, hmm, maybe they seceded again from the harpers or ‘faked’ the disbanding and took the organization off the radar. The Moonstars could find it amusing that a new set of harpers have popped up again and are planning accordingly.
I have found no reference to Twilight Hall in the article.
I think we could learn more once the next Blackstaff novel comes out.



Hehehe. What a devious idea....the tel'Teukiira faking their own death/dissolution and going into hiding.

Nah, that's not the sort of thing Khelben would have ever taught them....

Oh wait--that's almost exactly the sort of thing he kept trying to teach the Harpers the two or three times they had to rebuild the group (look to Code of the Harpers, ye gentles).

So, if nothing else, you have at least my opinion that both the Harpers and the Moonstars would have at least a few folks within their ranks quite content to let folks believe they had died off or become a very small group...and just continue on their secretive, merry ways doing what they need to do...

Brilliant, Bakra!

Steven

PS: While there are some mentions of Moonstars and Harpers in BLACKSTAFF TOWER, they are not truly linked to the plot nor are there many great details revealed. Just one or two important ones (in my opinion).

For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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gomez
Learned Scribe

Netherlands
254 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2008 :  21:24:29  Show Profile  Visit gomez's Homepage Send gomez a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion

Anyone else notice that they confused Everlund's architecture and
layout with that of Sundabar?


I looke dit up: it actually fits the description by Volo (the spokes of a wheel is taken directly from the Guide to the North).
However I did miss the write up for Sundabar in the Excerpt. Maybe it is in the PLayer guide?
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