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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe

Canada
434 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2008 :  16:22:39  Show Profile  Visit Afetbinttuzani's Homepage Send Afetbinttuzani a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
My PCs recently purchased some flasks of Greek Fire and I'd like some advice on how to manage its use in game play.

Context:
The PCs are currently being attacked by Trolls. The two PCs with the greek fire have taken a round to dip their arrow tips in the Greek Fire and are preparing to fire on the Trolls in the hopes that the Greek Fire will prevent regeneration (rather creative for an 11 year old, I thought). Fortunately we had to stop the session abruptly, so I have a week to work on this issue.

Questions:
1. In the Realms, does Greek Fire ignite on impact, or when it comes in contact with air or water, or does it have to be lit first? (IRL historians are unsure about this issue)
2. How viscous is Greek Fire? Would it have any useful effect when a regular arrow tip is dipped in it or would there have to be some sort of wadding to absorb it?
3. What have others done in terms of calculating damage from Greek Fire?

We are playing 2E.

Cheers,
Afet

Afet bint Tuzaní

"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham

Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 26 May 2008 20:20:25

Mace Hammerhand
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Germany
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Posted - 26 May 2008 :  17:33:35  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Off the top of my head I'd rule that greek fire (or alchemist's fire) shot from a bow, thus delivered by flaming arrows, would make 1d3 or so additional fire damage that cannot be regenerated. You'll have to keep two rows of HPs or something like that. After the initial round I say the fire deals 1d2 points of damage for d6 rounds before being extinguished.

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe

Canada
434 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2008 :  20:35:39  Show Profile  Visit Afetbinttuzani's Homepage Send Afetbinttuzani a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another possibility for using the Greek Fire, which will no doubt occur to them, is to throw the flask at the Troll so that it smashes and soaks it in the oil, then ignite the oil with a flaming arrow or burning hands or the like.

Any suggestions for damage wrought by being soaked by a roughly 12oz flask of Greek Fire and then lit up? If nothing else it would be spectacular

I´m interested what people have done or would do with the question of duration as well.
Afet

Afet bint Tuzaní

"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham

Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 26 May 2008 21:27:25
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2008 :  20:44:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I prefer using Greek Fire so that it ignites on contact with air, otherwise it just sounds like Fantasy gasoline (or lamp oil).

It also makes it MUCH harder to use, and dangerous - no dipping arrows into it (that would be oil), and smashing open a clay container of it would most likely end in an explosion.

I also picture it being more like a Gel, so it sticks to stuff when it hits, and doesn't just run off.

Other then that, I don't know what to tell you. I think Thay had some 'fire projectors' mounted on that infamous ship of theirs (the Red Scourge?), which is the only similar thing in the Realms.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe

Canada
434 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2008 :  21:53:05  Show Profile  Visit Afetbinttuzani's Homepage Send Afetbinttuzani a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I prefer using Greek Fire so that it ignites on contact with air, otherwise it just sounds like Fantasy gasoline (or lamp oil).
It also makes it MUCH harder to use, and dangerous - no dipping arrows into it (that would be oil), and smashing open a clay container of it would most likely end in an explosion.

I´m leaning towards having it ignite when it comes in contact with water, because it would be near impossible to manufacture, decant and store in the medieval context if it ignited in contact with air. Whereas maintaining extremely dry conditions for manufacture, distribution and storage, would be relatively simple. The substance would nevertheless be extremely dangerous to handle. Being caught in a rainstorm would be nerve racking if you had a few flasks of Greek Fire hanging from your belt. Also, Greek Fire of this kind would have nasty results if it came in contact with bodily fluids

I´m picturing a blown glass flask (clay is too porous), the stem of which has been stoppered and then dipped in wax to prevent moisture from getting in.

Afet

Afet bint Tuzaní

"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham

Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 26 May 2008 22:04:02
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Kentinal
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Posted - 26 May 2008 :  22:05:18  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The D&D apparent version of Greek Fire is Alchemist’s Fire. There however based on historic reports do not work the same.

I am not sure Greek Fire has been reproduced since the Greeks used it, bit it clearly is far more damaging then Alchemist’s Fire is.

IAE the Alchemist’s Fire is a contact waon, thus dipping into the flask would inite the arrow (The arrow head might not burn, but the wooden shalf holding it clearly would, thus making it imposible to effectively fire the arrow at any target.

Short of a splat book or you are designing a home brew item there are not rules for greek fire. In either case Greek Fire or Alchemist’s Fire is a contact weapon. It appears the Greeks fired the fire from tubes of metal. Prehaps like a flame thrower or on contact.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2008 :  22:28:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I played with a group that outlawed the use of Greek fire... The DM didn't do it, the players did. It was because of this one incident with a magic shield, Greek fire, a giant porcupine, and an idiot psionicist. The psionicist nearly caused a TPK by himself -- the only reason he didn't is because the DM heavily fudged the rolls to keep everyone else alive!

It was the start of the campaign. We were all third level. We're in the woods when we encounter a giant porcupine. The psionicist's player decides to chuck a vial of Greek fire at it... Being on fire, the porcupine flung quills everywhere. Giant quills. Giant flaming quills.

The psionicist was at ground zero, and caught at least a couple of the quills. One of those giant flaming quills hit the magic shield strapped to his back. And the shield failed its save, and also blew up. As if that wasn't enough, between the flaming quills and the exploding shield was the psionicist's pack -- which had more Greek fire in it! In other words, more BOOM!

I had to help the DM with the math... When all was said and done, the psionicist had taken 151 points of damage in one turn. Thanks to DM generosity, that was the only dead character -- otherwise, we'd have all been rolling up new characters.

And after that, no one ever took Greek fire. If someone even mentioned it, they were immediately shouted down.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 26 May 2008 :  22:31:15  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani


I´m leaning towards having it ignite when it comes in contact with water, because it would be near impossible to manufacture, decant and store in the medieval context if it ignited in contact with air.


Not necessarily. It depends on how its made, really. It could be something like mixing three otherwise inert substances together and heating them to mix them, for example. In that case, you could make the stuff all day long in a simple lab, and it's not dangerous until heat is applied.

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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe

Canada
434 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2008 :  22:44:49  Show Profile  Visit Afetbinttuzani's Homepage Send Afetbinttuzani a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

The D&D apparent version of Greek Fire is Alchemist’s Fire. There however based on historic reports do not work the same.

There does not appear to be any reference to "Alchemist´s Fire" in the 2E Core Rulebooks, only "Greek fire" which is listed as an Oil, sold by the flask (PHB p. 67)
quote:
I am not sure Greek Fire has been reproduced since the Greeks used it, bit it clearly is far more damaging then Alchemist’s Fire is.
Variations of a substance called Greek Fire were used by the Byzantines, Chinese and Arabs, well into the 14th Century. But it´s exact composition is not known. Regardless, since the 2E core rulebooks do not mention Alchemist´s Fire, I have no basis for knowing whether it is the same or different from Greek Fire. Where does the term "Alchemist´s" fire appear in DnD? My assumption, however, would be that someone at TSR realized that the term "Greek fire" makes no sense in the DnD world and changed it´s name to "Alchemist´s Fire".
quote:
IAE the Alchemist’s Fire is a contact waon, thus dipping into the flask would inite the arrow (The arrow head might not burn, but the wooden shalf holding it clearly would, thus making it imposible to effectively fire the arrow at any target.
This seems illogical to me. What does "contact w[e]a[p]on" mean? Does contact with the air cause it to ignite, or contact with the iron in the arrowhead, or what? Some sort of chemical reaction has to produce the ignition.
Afet

Afet bint Tuzaní

"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham

Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 26 May 2008 23:02:25
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Mace Hammerhand
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Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2008 :  23:07:13  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Alchemist Fire comes from 3e, and you probably have guessed correctly about the sense part in a D&D universe... greek fire that is

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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe

Canada
434 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2008 :  00:11:37  Show Profile  Visit Afetbinttuzani's Homepage Send Afetbinttuzani a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The psionicist's player decides to chuck a vial of Greek fire at it... Being on fire, the porcupine flung quills everywhere. Giant quills. Giant flaming quills.

The psionicist was at ground zero, and caught at least a couple of the quills. One of those giant flaming quills hit the magic shield strapped to his back. And the shield failed its save, and also blew up. As if that wasn't enough, between the flaming quills and the exploding shield was the psionicist's pack -- which had more Greek fire in it! In other words, more BOOM!

Hahahahahaaahhhhaaaaa! Thanks for that. My son just about peed himself when I read your description to him

But seriously, what die rolls did you use to determine the damage from the Greek Fire itself?

Afet.

Afet bint Tuzaní

"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham
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Kentinal
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4684 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2008 :  00:45:27  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I did not notice that 2nd was being used.

quote:
Oil of Fiery Burning: When this oil is exposed to air, it immediately bursts into flame, inflicting 5d6 points of damage to any creature directly exposed to the substance (save vs. spell for half damage). If hurled, the flask will always break. Any creature within 10 feet of the point of impact (up to a maximum of six creatures) will be affected. The oil can, for instance, be used to consume the bodies of as many as six regenerating creatures, such as trolls. If the flask is opened, the creature holding it immediately suffers 1d4 points of damage. Unless a roll equal to or less than the creature's Dexterity is made on 2d10, the flask cannot be re-stoppered in time to prevent the oil from exploding, with effects as described above.


It sounds close to Greek Fire, as before I have few splat books for the edition as well.

A contact weapon is one that makes contact, like Acid or Holy water. The containing vail or fask has to be opened or broken on hiting something in order for the fuild to cause damage. Acid and Holy Water clearly can be poured out with limited risk of damage, however Oil of Fiery Burning clearly become active on exposure to air.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2008 :  01:34:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not at home right now, so I can't check, but I think there are some rules in this FREE D20 supplement by Sean K. Reynolds - its about running a 'Greek' game (no jokes, please).

And if I'm remembering wrong, it's still worth the download - you just can't beat FREE.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe

Canada
434 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2008 :  01:50:35  Show Profile  Visit Afetbinttuzani's Homepage Send Afetbinttuzani a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

I did not notice that 2nd was being used.
quote:
Oil of Fiery Burning: When this oil is exposed to air, it immediately bursts into flame, inflicting 5d6 points of damage to any creature directly exposed to the substance (save vs. spell for half damage). If hurled, the flask will always break. Any creature within 10 feet of the point of impact (up to a maximum of six creatures) will be affected. The oil can, for instance, be used to consume the bodies of as many as six regenerating creatures, such as trolls. If the flask is opened, the creature holding it immediately suffers 1d4 points of damage. Unless a roll equal to or less than the creature's Dexterity is made on 2d10, the flask cannot be re-stoppered in time to prevent the oil from exploding, with effects as described above.


It sounds close to Greek Fire, as before I have few splat books for the edition as well.

Thanks for that quote, Kentinal. Some concrete suggestions there. Where is the quote from?
Afet

Afet bint Tuzaní

"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe

Canada
434 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2008 :  02:10:18  Show Profile  Visit Afetbinttuzani's Homepage Send Afetbinttuzani a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Not at home right now, so I can't check, but I think there are some rules in this FREE D20 supplement by Sean K. Reynolds - its about running a 'Greek' game (no jokes, please).

And if I'm remembering wrong, it's still worth the download - you just can't beat FREE.



Cool module. Thanks Markustay. It does mention Alchemist's Fire twice: once as a type of equipment, but without details; and again later in passing while referring to a magical cloak that reacts like alchemist's fire:
quote:
it bursts into flames as soon as it is put on, igniting the target as if he were doused with alchemist’s fire (1d6 fire damage per round)

Afet

Afet bint Tuzaní

"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2008 :  02:18:57  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani

quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

I did not notice that 2nd was being used.
quote:
Oil of Fiery Burning: When this oil is exposed to air, it immediately bursts into flame, inflicting 5d6 points of damage to any creature directly exposed to the substance (save vs. spell for half damage). If hurled, the flask will always break. Any creature within 10 feet of the point of impact (up to a maximum of six creatures) will be affected. The oil can, for instance, be used to consume the bodies of as many as six regenerating creatures, such as trolls. If the flask is opened, the creature holding it immediately suffers 1d4 points of damage. Unless a roll equal to or less than the creature's Dexterity is made on 2d10, the flask cannot be re-stoppered in time to prevent the oil from exploding, with effects as described above.


It sounds close to Greek Fire, as before I have few splat books for the edition as well.

Thanks for that quote, Kentinal. Some concrete suggestions there. Where is the quote from?
Afet



I pulled the quote from Core Rules CD, should be DMG, but I would need to dig the book out for a page number. I believe it was called the Black book by some and 2.5 Edition by other that the quote was first printed.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe

Canada
434 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2008 :  05:03:14  Show Profile  Visit Afetbinttuzani's Homepage Send Afetbinttuzani a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I pulled the quote from Core Rules CD, should be DMG, but I would need to dig the book out for a page number. I believe it was called the Black book by some and 2.5 Edition by other that the quote was first printed.


Excellent. I found what you quoted on page 143 of the 2E DMG (TSR 1994). It certainly has all the earmarks of the historical Greek Fire. However, in the 2E PHB "Greek fire" is listed under "Miscellaneous Equipment" as an oil sold by the flask for only 10gp (p. 67). I can't imagine that the designers meant this to be the same thing as "Oil of Fiery Burning", which is listed on the "Magical Items Tables" of the DMG as being worth 500XP. It seems to me that the Greek fire listed in the PHB must simply be some sort of highly flammable petroleum based oil that is ignited by conventional means and, although hard to extinguish, is not as nearly as destructive as Oil of Fiery Burning.
Afet

Afet bint Tuzaní

"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham

Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 27 May 2008 06:08:46
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe

Canada
434 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2008 :  16:29:32  Show Profile  Visit Afetbinttuzani's Homepage Send Afetbinttuzani a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks everyone for your help on this issue. For the sake of future scribes exploring this question, here is my canon summary and IMC description of "Greek fire".

Canon summary:
This description refers to the "Greek fire" listed in the "Equipment" chapter of the 2E PHB under "Oils" in the "Miscellaneous Items" (p. 69) section. It is listed as sold by the flask for 10gp. This "Greek fire" ("Alchemist's fire" in 3E) is not the same as the "Oil of Fiery Burning" listed in the 2E DMG "Magical Items Tables" (p. 143), which far more destructive and closer in it's properties to the historical Greek fire used during the Middle Ages.

IM(2E)C description:
"Greek fire" is a stable, viscous petroleum based liquid (the consistency of motor oil) that must be ignited by a flame or intense heat. Once ignited, "Greek fire" burns for 1d6 rounds. If a melee or missile weapon is coated in "Greek fire" and ignited, it will do 1-3 points of burning damage per wound per round, in addition to regular weapon damage. The entire contents of the flask will do 2d6 points of burning damage per round. A flask of "Greek fire" may be given a cloth fuse and thrown as a grenade, but if the "Greek fire" is ignited while still in the flask (25% chance), it will explode and spread over an area 10' in diameter. If a flask of "Greek fire" (12oz blown glass vial) is thrown against a hard surface (bone, hard earth, etc.), it will shatter and coat an area 6' in diameter. If thrown against a soft surface (flesh, soft ground, etc.), there is a 50% chance that the flask will shatter. Flammable materials in contact with ignited "Greek fire" will burn. "Greek fire" cannot be extinguished except by completely air tight smothering (eg: submersion in water). The surface application of water only causes the "Greek fire" to spatter and spread.

Cheers,
Afet

Afet bint Tuzaní

"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham

Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 27 May 2008 22:09:35
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2008 :  17:33:40  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani

Excellent. I found what you quoted on page 143 of the 2E DMG (TSR 1994). It certainly has all the earmarks of the historical Greek Fire. However, in the 2E PHB "Greek fire" is listed under "Miscellaneous Equipment" as an oil sold by the flask for only 10gp (p. 67). I can't imagine that the designers meant this to be the same thing as "Oil of Fiery Burning", which is listed on the "Magical Items Tables" of the DMG as being worth 500XP. It seems to me that the Greek fire listed in the PHB must simply be some sort of highly flammable petroleum based oil that is ignited by conventional means and, although hard to extinguish, is not as nearly as destructive as Oil of Fiery Burning.
Afet

Now, you see, if it were up to me, I would just swap those two names, and everything would appear right as rain.

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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe

Canada
434 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2008 :  00:43:10  Show Profile  Visit Afetbinttuzani's Homepage Send Afetbinttuzani a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now, you see, if it were up to me, I would just swap those two names, and everything would appear right as rain.


Agreed.
Afet

Afet bint Tuzaní

"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2008 :  07:50:23  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The description Afet provided closely matches what a historic weapons re-creation team (on the History Channel, I think) discovered: there must be a fire source at the delivery end, otherwise Greek fire won't burn. (It's based on naphta, a petroleum distillate, which does not self-ignite; if it did, the Middle east would have been totally depopulated thousands of years ago!) Although it is mightily effective when used as the Romans/Byzantines used it (sprayed from tubes presumably connected to large containers of the stuff), misses and failures to ignite were common (Constantinople almost certainly had dozens, if not hundreds of flame throwers.) I strongly doubt the efficacy of a pint of it splashed around someone.

One thing to bear in mind was that the formula for Greek fire was a state secret (which is the main reason we can't recreate it exactly). If one carries over real-world experiences to FR, then Greek fire would be a closely-guarded secret and wouldn't be sold in any quantity to a party of wandering vagabonds unless they were working for the state and closely monitored by a bureaucrat of some sort or other.




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Afetbinttuzani
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Canada
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Posted - 01 Jun 2008 :  20:05:41  Show Profile  Visit Afetbinttuzani's Homepage Send Afetbinttuzani a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen

One thing to bear in mind was that the formula for Greek fire was a state secret (which is the main reason we can't recreate it exactly). If one carries over real-world experiences to FR, then Greek fire would be a closely-guarded secret and wouldn't be sold in any quantity to a party of wandering vagabonds unless they were working for the state and closely monitored by a bureaucrat of some sort or other.


Agreed. This is why I've made the inappropriately named "Greek fire" that appears in the 2E PHB fairly tame, compared with the very destructive magical "Oil of Fiery Burning" in the DMG. I imagine the "Greek fire" from the PHB as little more than a viscous gasoline.

Cheers,
Afet

Afet bint Tuzaní

"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2008 :  02:08:03  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If I recall aright, Greek Fire was also sticky, as is Napalm. While an oil alone would just drip off a person or item, Greek Fire would stick and create localized hotspots, which would lead to multiple points of burning and to blistering (with enormous pain, which would likely require a DC25 or greater Concentration check to ignore).



I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe

Canada
434 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2008 :  21:59:17  Show Profile  Visit Afetbinttuzani's Homepage Send Afetbinttuzani a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen

If I recall aright, Greek Fire was also sticky, as is Napalm. While an oil alone would just drip off a person or item, Greek Fire would stick and create localized hotspots, which would lead to multiple points of burning and to blistering (with enormous pain, which would likely require a DC25 or greater Concentration check to ignore).


I hadn´t thought of the painful distraction factor. I suppose that IMC (2e) I could have PCs and NPCs hit by "Greek fire" do a Constitution check with a -2 modifier. A failed check would imply a penalty for actions such as attacking, defending of say -4 and an additional 50% chance of failure in spell casting. For creatures, I could just do moral check with a modifier of -2, with a failure resulting in retreat or mad flailing about, and all that that implies.

Cheers,
Afet

Afet bint Tuzaní

"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham

Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 02 Jun 2008 22:01:58
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2008 :  10:13:05  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shocking though it may be, I actually lay claim to some pretense of scholarship within these walls. I don't only complain, however much it might seem that way. *sigh*


Greek Fire! The Last Days of Constantinople: Role Playing Adventure in the Byzantine Empire, published by Avalanche Press Ltd in 2000, written by Brien J. Miller, provides damage rules for Greek Fire in a box on page 7. It is for 3rd edition, not 4.New.Coke, so don't apply identical damage if you are giving up D&D in order to play 4.New.Coke.

Since it's dark and I can't read their Open Content listing, let me say only that it does 2D10 +10 damage on a direct hit, with automatic destruction of a human target. Splash damage is 1D12 +4, with a radius of 30 feet. That is for SIXTY POUNDS of it. Spelljammer probably also has rules for its use. In Space 1889, if I recall correctly, something similar was used as an anti-ship weapon on Mars. Alas, I do not have immediate access to those rules at the moment. Nevertheless, I hope the above information will be helpful.

Having had some slight experience in running low fantasy campaigns, I would advise against making a direct hit Insta-Kill; it should be lethal, but the description of the death should be narrated as vivdly as possible, dragging out of the players a realization that their weapon causes (in)humanly agonizing deaths, which should give "Good" characters some qualms about using it. That's how I would run it.




I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe

Canada
434 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2008 :  16:22:30  Show Profile  Visit Afetbinttuzani's Homepage Send Afetbinttuzani a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen

Shocking though it may be, I actually lay claim to some pretense of scholarship within these walls. I don't only complain, however much it might seem that way. *sigh*


Greek Fire! The Last Days of Constantinople: Role Playing Adventure in the Byzantine Empire, published by Avalanche Press Ltd in 2000, written by Brien J. Miller, provides damage rules for Greek Fire in a box on page 7. It is for 3rd edition, not 4.New.Coke, so don't apply identical damage if you are giving up D&D in order to play 4.New.Coke.

Since it's dark and I can't read their Open Content listing, let me say only that it does 2D10 +10 damage on a direct hit, with automatic destruction of a human target. Splash damage is 1D12 +4, with a radius of 30 feet. That is for SIXTY POUNDS of it. Spelljammer probably also has rules for its use. In Space 1889, if I recall correctly, something similar was used as an anti-ship weapon on Mars. Alas, I do not have immediate access to those rules at the moment. Nevertheless, I hope the above information will be helpful.

Having had some slight experience in running low fantasy campaigns, I would advise against making a direct hit Insta-Kill; it should be lethal, but the description of the death should be narrated as vivdly as possible, dragging out of the players a realization that their weapon causes (in)humanly agonizing deaths, which should give "Good" characters some qualms about using it. That's how I would run it.

Sounds interesting. Again, however, the "Greek fire" I refer to is not a parallel to the historical Greed fire. It is the more innocuous substance mentioned in the 2E PHB Equipment listings.

Cheers,
Brent

Afet bint Tuzaní

"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2008 :  01:06:19  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
O-tay, but I have had far too much coffee in the past few days to not finish posting, since this will probably be the first scroll anyone turns to when doing a Search for "Greek Fire."


Greek Fire Projectors are a (dangerous) shipboard weapon described in Concordance of Arcane Space, page 43, from the Spelljammer boxed set, written by Jeff Grubb. These are AD&D rules, with 3.0 changes noted when appropriate.

Range is one hex (500 yards), and there must be continuous atmosphere between the projector and the target -- the rules specify that, although I think that in a vacuum the Greek Fire might actually be incandescent, but I'm writing about rules, not physics.

Cost: 1000 gp

Crew: 3

THAC0: 16 (i.e., +5 to hit)

Crit: 18-20

Dmg: 3d10 hit points (or 1d3 hull points) + Fire

Splash radius: 5 feet

The rules specify that Greek Fire will burn on any surface it hits (although I suppose that it wouldn't stick to Universal Solvent), provided that it has a continuous air supply. Flammable surfaces (or creatures) will have an adhesive burning substance on them if they are struck by Greek Fire, and Spelljammer "Fire" rules apply for subsequent rounds. (It's not necessarily Insta-Kill, but it will seriously hurt any creature -- such as a human -- which will burn.)

To represent the hazards of having a Greek Fire Projector, a medium catapult striking one does a critical hit (or poses a critical threat) on 18-20, meaning that it will cause the Greek Fire itself to explode into flame; ordinarily it would only crit on a 19 or 20.



I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe

Canada
434 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2008 :  13:55:48  Show Profile  Visit Afetbinttuzani's Homepage Send Afetbinttuzani a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cool Thanks Jamallo
Afet

Afet bint Tuzaní

"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham

Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 09 Jun 2008 13:56:34
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