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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Apr 2008 : 21:35:54
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long live our Realms!
I will ignore the nonsense they've cooked up.
I will not stand for creative stupidity.
With that in mind, I will do what I've always done from the beginning, I will chronicle the Realms with reason, unlike those butchers at WotC.
Bruce Cordell, I love what you've done for (A)D&D, and I wish you all the best in whatever your next project may be, but you have lost me as a customer of Realms RPG products.
Rich Baker, Faust made a better bargain, and he backed out of it in the end. I hope you do the same, because what you have done for the Realms in the past means a lot to me.
Phil Athans, ...
I understand why you had to change the Realms, I just don't appreciate how you did it! All I could ever want from the Realms in terms of info I got in my games-library. I will purchase the books I need to finish trilogies, and then move into the Realms and make it my own.
I never thought I would say this, but thank you.
Thank you for not widen up the horizon of the Realms in 3e.
Thank you for not going creative, instead mostly repeating stuff that has come before.
Thank you for not creating truly memorable characters like Alias, Mirt, Arilyn...
Instead you chose to spawn lesser sons of greater sires, so to speak, to quote a little LotR.
Truth be told, you founders of the new Realms could have and should have created a new world, and not resort to phoney pretense of an attempt to save what you perceive as the true Realms experience. A necrophiliac has more respect for its victims!
 Sowwy, had to get this off my chest.
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Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2008 : 22:59:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Phil Athans, ...
Lol. That pretty much sums up my feelings for his work as well. I am not trying to bash him, but I seriously think that the Realms would have been better if he had never touched them. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 01:53:44
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Yeah, I don't have anything against Phil Athans personally, but he created the character I hate the most, the one I don't like even a little bit (Phyrea).
I don't mean the character I hate the most in the Realms. I mean the character I hate the most out of every single character I've EVER read about.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 30 Apr 2008 01:54:00 |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 03:17:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Truth be told, you founders of the new Realms could have and should have created a new world, and not resort to phoney pretense of an attempt to save what you perceive as the true Realms experience. A necrophiliac has more respect for its victims!
Good point about a new setting....
You've definitely a way with words, Mace!  |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 13:27:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't mean the character I hate the most in the Realms. I mean the character I hate the most out of every single character I've EVER read about.
To be fair, some of the Aes Sedai in the Wheel of Time are just as aggravating as Phyrea(though I think Jordan MEANT to make those particular Aes Sedai make the readers froth at the mouth :) ) |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 15:30:44
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't mean the character I hate the most in the Realms. I mean the character I hate the most out of every single character I've EVER read about.
To be fair, some of the Aes Sedai in the Wheel of Time are just as aggravating as Phyrea(though I think Jordan MEANT to make those particular Aes Sedai make the readers froth at the mouth :) )
Never read those books, but at this time, I find it hard to believe that any character could be worse than Phyrea, especially if those characters you mention were "meant to be that way." In Phyrea's case, it felt like the author wanted the reader to feel sorry for her or something, which only made me hate her more. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 21:17:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Fillow
Lyrna, my dear Lyrna,
Where could I learn who is Phyrea please ?
Watercourse trilogy. BTW, I hated most of the characters in that trilogy. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 21:21:06
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| That trilogy was never on my to-buy list... *hurries off to chek if he hasn't accidentally bought it, much like he accidentally bought WotC's SW RPG* |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 23:49:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't mean the character I hate the most in the Realms. I mean the character I hate the most out of every single character I've EVER read about.
To be fair, some of the Aes Sedai in the Wheel of Time are just as aggravating as Phyrea(though I think Jordan MEANT to make those particular Aes Sedai make the readers froth at the mouth :) )
Never read those books, but at this time, I find it hard to believe that any character could be worse than Phyrea, especially if those characters you mention were "meant to be that way." In Phyrea's case, it felt like the author wanted the reader to feel sorry for her or something, which only made me hate her more.
Feel sorry for her? I thought we were meant to want to strangle her. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 23:51:19
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| For what its worth, I thought the Watercourse Trilogy was amazing. I read the novels back to back and couldn't put them down. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 00:51:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Fillow
Lyrna, my dear Lyrna,
Where could I learn who is Phyrea please ?
What Kuje said.
I'd like to mention that all the major plot points and characters in the Watercourse trilogy were taken directly from Ayn Rand's philosophical novel The Fountainhead. Phil Athans does in fact credit Rand's work as an inspiration right in the front of each book, so that isn't merely a stretch of the imagination, either.
Here's a description of the main character of The Fountainhead:
Howard Roark is the main protagonist in the novel, whom Rand portrays as an ideal man. He is an aspiring architect with a unique, uncompromising creative vision, which contrasts sharply with the staid and uninspired conventions of the architectural establishment. He ignores the driving preoccupations of the world around him: wealth, status, regard amongst his fellow men. Roark takes pleasure in the act of creation, but is constantly opposed by "the hostility of second-hand souls" and those unwilling or afraid to recognize his creative ability. Roark serves as the basic mold from which the protagonists of Rand's other great novel, Atlas Shrugged, are cast.
Surely that sounds quite familiar to those who read the WT?
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 01 May 2008 01:01:53 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 00:57:26
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Warhammer Fantasy Role Play, anyone?
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 00:58:47
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Feel sorry for her? I thought we were meant to want to strangle her.
Well, everyone interprets an author's intent differently, although we seem to have reached the same basic conclusion. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 01 May 2008 00:58:57 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 01:34:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Surely that sounds quite familiar to those who read the WT?
Sounds like both novels have singularly driven architects. Unless The Fountainhead is set in a fantasy world, however, with magic, nagas, and trips to Kara-Tur I doubt I would take pleasure in it as much as I enjoyed the Watercourse Trilogy. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 16:12:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Sounds like both novels have singularly driven architects.
They aren't merely "driven." They are Objectivists.
quote:
Unless The Fountainhead is set in a fantasy world, however, with magic, nagas, and trips to Kara-Tur I doubt I would take pleasure in it as much as I enjoyed the Watercourse Trilogy.
The Fountainhead is most definitely set in the real world (in the U.S.), in the first half of the 20th century.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 01 May 2008 16:16:04 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 22:21:43
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| I started Wheel of Time and couldn't get through the first book... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 22:59:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I started Wheel of Time and couldn't get through the first book...
Well I got though book Seven (only one I own), but there again I read most of what falls into my hands. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 23:40:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I started Wheel of Time and couldn't get through the first book...
Well I got though book Seven (only one I own), but there again I read most of what falls into my hands.
Wow, the only book you have is where the series begins to go downhill (admitted even by my brother-in-law, who is and WoT fanatic). IMO, the only ones I enjoyed where books 1-6, and book 9. After 10 I refused to read any more until the series was finished. And so, when the series is finally finished (yes, I know Jordan is dead, but his wife hired someone to write the last book from his dictations, or something similar such, and she will be editing it, like she did I think 1/2 the series), I will probably start at book 1 and work my way through it again (though I am not sure if I can force myself to read books 8 or 10 ever again). |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 01 May 2008 23:42:45 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 00:59:26
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This has a topic?
I thought it was the latest 'bash the new Realms' thread. 
I never read Watercourse, but only because I was 'recommended' not to by so many people. I had the same idea, YEARS AGO, about connecting the the Inner sea to the outer ones, in the same exact spot. The place was just begging for it, and I was VERY interested in hearing about how someone handled it in FR.
But since I heard 'bad things', I haven't picked it up. 'Mary Sue'ism isn't all that bad when done right, but it could be gawd-awful when done wrong.
Anyhow, I haven't been happy with quite a few of my latest FR novel purchases, except for Paul Kemp's stuff, and of course, The Annotated Elminster. I think 4e will be a good time for me to go back and pick-up all the books I missed (and there are MANY of them) - after all, now that the 'old Realms' are gone, I can finally say that the all the storylines have been wrapped up.
Unlike Wheel of Time and Sword of truth, both of which seem to just drag on and on at this point. I want to read the last book now NOT because I'm enthralled so much with the story, but rather just to finally get it over with. 
So, now FR is complete. The novels have finished it... in more ways then one.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 May 2008 01:02:30 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 01:12:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I never read Watercourse, but only because I was 'recommended' not to by so many people. I had the same idea, YEARS AGO, about connecting the the Inner sea to the outer ones, in the same exact spot. The place was just begging for it, and I was VERY interested in hearing about how someone handled it in FR.
Phil Athans was baffled (or so he says) that no one ever thought of the brilliant idea of connecting those two seas with a canal. Of course, just because no one at TSR/WotC ever thought of that doesn't mean no Realms fan ever did.
Really, though, if the series intrigues you, I say go ahead and read it! I'm pretty frank about my opinions, but I would never advise somene NOT to read a book that they took an interest in. Maybe they'll gain great enjoyment from it, maybe it'll even become their new favorite novel...even if such a thought is unthinkable to me. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 02 May 2008 01:12:18 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 03:59:16
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| I've not read the books in question, but I do have to agree with RF: give them a shot. There have been plenty of books that had detractors, but I don't think there has been a single one that was universally panned... And all of our opinions are different. Some of the most popular Realms series we've had in the last few years, I've been bored by or flat out didn't enjoy. So one person's lousy read may be a wonderful book for you. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 15:37:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
Well said Mace Hammerhand
The Future Realms looks like Crap (4ed) and I can only hope that somebody finds it interesting.
Me and my group will not use 4 ed Crap….. Floating islands – Goods living on prime – Baaa…. it sounds like something form Dagonlance. I HATE IT!
And how does that sound like Dragonlance? |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 15:43:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Phil Athans was baffled (or so he says) that no one ever thought of the brilliant idea of connecting those two seas with a canal. Of course, just because no one at TSR/WotC ever thought of that doesn't mean no Realms fan ever did.
Just curious, was the channel ever finished, if so what where the consequences for trade? I kept away from these novels, as I hated the channel idea and have huge problems with Rand.
Oh, and as I was a little late for the of-topic thing. I did get through the first volume of Wheel of Time and that was one of the reasons (there were others) I more or less decided to quit modern fantasy. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 16:59:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Just curious, was the channel ever finished, if so what where the consequences for trade? I kept away from these novels, as I hated the channel idea and have huge problems with Rand.
It was almost finished but the builder blows it up at the end of the trilogy, thus causing it to be uncomplete. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 20:19:04
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Phil Athans said he was baffled that no one at TSR/WotC ever thought of linking the Sea of Fallen Stars with the large western sea via the Vilhon, rivers, and some linking canals?
Really?
Well, that floors me. Although I suppose it's possible he wasn't in the audience of the (Milwaukee-era) GenCon where Ed and Jeff Grubb and some other panelists whose names now escape me discussed just that idea? At length, too. Including Ed saying he'd designed matters that way, and a player in one of his library campaigns had in the past looked at his brand-new copy of the (Fonstad, print-version) FR Atlas and hit upon the idea aloud.
I do recall Phil being on staff with TSR's books department before that panel, back in the Milwaukee-era GenCons when Realms (and other settings) fiction readings were a regular part of con proceedings.
Now, writing the undertaking of creating the linked route up as a trilogy of NOVELS might very well be Phil's idea . . .
love to all,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 02 May 2008 20:22:49 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 20:57:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Just curious, was the channel ever finished, if so what where the consequences for trade? I kept away from these novels, as I hated the channel idea and have huge problems with Rand.
If you have huge problems with Rand's philosophies, I think it is likely you will not like this trilogy (which does, IMO, promote said philosophies).
As for the canal, please highlight for spoilers: The canal was not finished in the novel, because the protagonist chose to destroy his work rather than have it "polluted" by people who didn't like his vision and wanted it changed to suit their desires (which was what was happening). That is the same thing the protagonist in The Fountainhead did to the building he was creating, for the very same reasons.
However, the canal WAS eventually finished (in I think 1380 DR) according to the Grand History of the Realms. There is no detail there about how it impacted trade.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 01:43:47
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Woooohoooo! Rand in the Realms! I wonder what she'd think of it...
May I ask whom was the Fountainhead parallel for the despicable Phyrea? And does Phil's Roark sulk? Roark was such an unsophisticated set piece with control-issues that I'd actually enjoy seeing how his FR-equivalent measures up.
At the end of our novel does the protagonist find his way to the valley of elitist, industrious philosophes where he survives the Spellplague?
Or is that the next trilogy!?! |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 02:02:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
Me and my group will not use 4 ed Crap….. Floating islands – Goods living on prime – Baaa…!
Everytime I read about floating islands, I hear the music from SuperMarioBros. I find it eerie that these floating islands will most likely resonate with the post-Nintendo generations, whom, from what I've read, is the target audience.
Maybe Midnight Syndicate could have a soundtrak for 4.0 that samples the Mario music for encountering floating terrain. |
Edited by - monknwildcat on 03 May 2008 02:05:05 |
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Their Realms are dead...
