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Ecap
Acolyte
8 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 03:33:13
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My thoughts based on the books Ive read...
Elminster - I think everyone agrees that this guy is pretty much the alpha wizard of the forgotten realms. I don't feel like I need to go into why... he always comes out on top.
The Simbul - She seems pretty powerful, although it sort of made my skin crawl when she had to save elminster in 'elminster in hell'. I think she is so powerful because she spends so much of her time defeating aggressive Thayan usurpers. I also like her character, she seems kind of psycho.
Halaster Blackcloak - people say he is really powerful, but I'm not sure why. I haven't really found any books where he is more then just a reference. Apparently he has a domain, 'undermountain'? I'm not to sure of the backround of this character, and I would appreciate it if someone could fill me in.
Szass Tam - This wizard is just so delightfully evil. Even though he is part of a council of 12 (until recently) he always seems to be the most intimidating. I wonder why he has never gone head to head with the simbul, and who would come out on top?!
Manshoon - This guy has survived multiple attempts on his life by elminster and the knights of myth drannor. I think that speaks for itself. Yeah he's been killed - but what does that matter if you have couple dozen 'clone contingency' spells waiting around for just that circumstance? :)
Gromph - the archmage of the underdark. I don't know to much about him, but for a male to progress as much as he has in the matriarchal, backwards culture of menzoberranzan he has to be quite the monster.
Anyone else have any thoughts?
Also, as a corollary question - has Bane been ressurected? I thought he was destroyed in the time of troubles. In Finders bane, they tried to ressurect him but failed. I noticed in some books I recently read *unholy and undead* that bane priests were active and banes avatar even made an appearance. Is it possible these books predated the time of troubles? I'd apprecate an answer to this...
Thanks!
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Sink or Swim |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 03:55:46
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Bane has indeed returned. The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and Faiths & Pantheons are the only sources we have on this. They provide some brief notes which tell us that on this one particular night [Midwinter night of 1372 DR], all worshippers of Iyachtu Xvim had a dream where they saw him split apart and Bane emerged from within.
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 04:19:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecap
Halaster Blackcloak - people say he is really powerful, but I'm not sure why. I haven't really found any books where he is more then just a reference. Apparently he has a domain, 'undermountain'? I'm not to sure of the backround of this character, and I would appreciate it if someone could fill me in.
Yes, it is Undermountain. The references for Halaster are fairly well scattered throughout diverse Realmslore sources. If you're looking for just a quick synopsis, I suggest you read through Halaster's entry in the Villains' Lorebook, which is available as a free PDF download at WotC.
As for Undermountain sources:-
The two Ruins of Undermountain boxed sets are the main sources. The first set covers the first three levels, while the second details three sublevels. And we know that levels four through nine have been designed but remain unpublished.
You can pick them up as PDFs at either paizo.com or RPGNow.com for $4-$5 US respectively. Also nobleknight.com and dragontrove.com have hard copies of the boxed sets available for varied prices.
Most of the Waterdeep sourcebooks have references as well. And the 3.5e City of Splendors sourcebook has a complete list of levels and sublevels in Undermountain.
And there are three adventures by Steven Schend set in specific levels of Undermountain. They're available as free downloads at WotC:- http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads
Further sources are noted below:-
quote:
Escape From Undermountain
FR1 Waterdeep And The North
Faiths and Avatars (Ibrandul's corpse reference)
Ruins of Undermountain I
"If You Need Help --- Ask The Drow!" [Dragon #176]
Ruins of Undermountain II
City of Splendors [boxed set]
"I Sing A Song By The Deep-Water Bay" [Dragon #211]
The Lost Level
"The Reports From Undermountain" [Dragon #227]
Maddgoth's Castle
Iakhovas' Attack on Waterdeep
The Great Modron March
Stardock
Skullport
Elminster In Hell
Dawn of Night [Erevis Cale Trilogy, Book II]
City of Splendors: Waterdeep
Return to Undermountain [web articles]
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Edited by - The Sage on 24 Apr 2008 04:28:33 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 04:26:12
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| you forgot Larloch, and whats his name who became an undead elder brain |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 04:29:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecap
Manshoon - This guy has survived multiple attempts on his life by elminster and the knights of myth drannor. I think that speaks for itself. Yeah he's been killed - but what does that matter if you have couple dozen 'clone contingency' spells waiting around for just that circumstance? :)
With regard to Manshoon, his power, and the potential opportunities for further power presented by his clones, you might want to consider this bit from both the Lady Hooded One, and Ed Greenwood:-
"With respect, folks, some of the discussion here is founded on incomplete understandings. The lower levels of various Manshoon clones aren't "mistakes." Manshoon's clones aren't created by the PHB clone spell, but rather by Manshoon's stasis clone spell (which has been detailed by Ed in 2nd Ed sources, and remember: FR lore isn't trumped by rules edition changes, so just because 3e and 3.5e have come along since then, it DOESN'T mean there isn't still a "stasis clone" spell used by Manshoon. Several scenes in Ed's novels detail the "awakening" of Manshoon's clones, which normally occurred only when the "previous" Manshoon died. The multiple clones, hidden all over the Realms (El has threatened Manshoon in published Realmslore that he knows where they all are), each have the levels, memories, etc. they had when created . . . so some of them are of FAR less power than 'more modern' Manshoons (so killing Manshoon DOES harm him). Manshoon adds new clones from time to time, but what happened with the Manshoon Wars was that all (or almost all) of the clones were awakened at once. Hence all the different levels, etc. To reiterate: there is no "transfer" of existing spells, memories, etc. to a newly awakened clone.
And yes, Manshoon IS the ultimate puppet master among non-liches and non-zulkirs, although there's something going on with Hesperdan that Ed hasn't revealed to us all, yet.
Not trying to rain on the parade here, just to correct things before too many assumptions in reasoning are made based on the wrong clone spell.
love,
THO" |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ecap
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 04:53:53
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Ah yes... I realized there were two I forgot after reading the responses.
Khelben Blackstaff Arunsun - This is another realms character I had only really been introduced to anecdotally until I read the recent trilogy where shade enclave returns to Toril and the phaerimm attack evereska (great read, by the way!). This guy, along with his wife Laereal (who also seems pretty powerful in her own right) pretty much hold off the vastly superior forces of the phaerimm on their own. There's no doubt, Khelben is not to be trifled with. I believe he also made an appearance in the last of the avatar series, where a pivotal battle actually took place on his tower!!
Vangherdahast - This guy is the royal wizard of Cormyr. Although I haven't seen him in action too often, I know that he semes to keep correspondance with Elminster and some other archmages. I believe there was one seen where he discovered a trapped interloper in one of his chambers and couldn't figure out how the guy had transported in there, so he cast some spell to consult Elminster. There's no doubt about it though, Vangerdahast kicks butt.
Also, in response to what one of the moderators said earlier, unfortunately my FR knowledge doesn't extend to the gaming context, Ive just been a big fan of the books for a long time. So if I say anything in reference to a spell or w/e that is inconsistent with gaming rules, rest assured - I didnt mean too! :) |
Sink or Swim |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 04:55:28
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King Zalathorm of Halruaa I would rank as one of the most powerful wizards in the Realms...
He is not only a wizard of great power, but long lived also with the amassed might of Halruaa essentially at his call...a nation much more united than Thay.
He also divined the Time of Troubles (which briefly drove him mad).
I'm voting Zalathorm as one of the most powerful wizards of all...even above the likes of the Lich of Thay, Manshoon and Gromph (any of which I think he could take out easily). He may not be on the same level as a Chosen...but he is darn close. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 15:07:20
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To add a bit to the Manshoon lore, I do believe he can "update" clones if he chooses to do so, I believe this takes physical proximity though. My guess is that Manshoon avoids keeping many clones up to date because he doesn't want them found and is probably one of the most watched beings in Toril.
I'd have to vote for Larloch myself, I don't know of a more powerful spell caster in the Realms (baring the gods and I wouldn't be surprised if even they didn't want to tangle with him). I put Larloch above Karsus due to the fact Larloch has been getting better, though Karsus was amazing. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 15:48:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecap
Szass Tam - This wizard is just so delightfully evil. Even though he is part of a council of 12 (until recently) he always seems to be the most intimidating. I wonder why he has never gone head to head with the simbul, and who would come out on top?!
There's no way to know. With highly powerful characters, it could be either, or.
I generally pick Elminster, not only because of his power but also because of his wisdom, and his desire to influence the Realms for the better.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 24 Apr 2008 15:57:49 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 19:13:57
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
To add a bit to the Manshoon lore, I do believe he can "update" clones if he chooses to do so, I believe this takes physical proximity though. My guess is that Manshoon avoids keeping many clones up to date because he doesn't want them found and is probably one of the most watched beings in Toril.
Indeed. All he had to do was come into physical contact with a (non-activated) clone, and it would be updated with his memories and experience, but not any physical changes. So as soon as he touched a clone, it was a complete backup of himself.
I think it was more likely, though, that he simply didn't have the time to keep all of his clones up to date. He had more than forty of them, and that's a whole lot of teleporting to do to update each of them. I'd imagine that the ones closest to home were kept the most up-to-date, while others in high-traffic areas (like the one in Westgate) would be the second tier of updates. The least frequently updated ones would be the ones in odd, out of the way places that he didn't expect to ever go near. Since the stasis clone spell would activate the nearest clone, those would be more like fail-safes than full-on backups.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 19:34:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
To add a bit to the Manshoon lore, I do believe he can "update" clones if he chooses to do so, I believe this takes physical proximity though. My guess is that Manshoon avoids keeping many clones up to date because he doesn't want them found and is probably one of the most watched beings in Toril.
Indeed. All he had to do was come into physical contact with a (non-activated) clone, and it would be updated with his memories and experience, but not any physical changes. So as soon as he touched a clone, it was a complete backup of himself.
I think it was more likely, though, that he simply didn't have the time to keep all of his clones up to date. He had more than forty of them, and that's a whole lot of teleporting to do to update each of them. I'd imagine that the ones closest to home were kept the most up-to-date, while others in high-traffic areas (like the one in Westgate) would be the second tier of updates. The least frequently updated ones would be the ones in odd, out of the way places that he didn't expect to ever go near. Since the stasis clone spell would activate the nearest clone, those would be more like fail-safes than full-on backups.
One thing I thought of is that when a Manshoon Clone is "activated" it will have no knowledge of clones created after him if he was not updated with that knowledge...and so you have a wide array of clones that the "current" Manshoon may not even know about. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 19:45:52
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| i'll take a call on Zarathorm ... he figured out a way to live longer than a normal human being all over without other reseach notes handed down than it might be possable |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 20:09:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
One thing I thought of is that when a Manshoon Clone is "activated" it will have no knowledge of clones created after him if he was not updated with that knowledge...and so you have a wide array of clones that the "current" Manshoon may not even know about.
Yep, though I'd say Manshoon would definitely be aware of such a possibility. I wouldn't be surprised if he left himself vague clues about such things, and when I say vague I mean REALLY vague. Maybe not though, Manshoon is one of the more paranoid folks around. That it's for good reason probably only enhances the paranoia. 
I think Wooly makes some excellent observations about the clone situation as well but I think that part of it would certainly be that he's probably almost constantly being scryed by someone (which he probably has blocked but there's still the chance that something will go unnoticed until too late). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 21:25:42
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| Both are valid points... But I never even considered the idea of forgotten clones! That's an interesting idea. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Apr 2008 21:26:50 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 21:42:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Both are valid points... But I never even considered the idea of forgotten clones! That's an interesting idea.
Aye, I gave my party an out against Manshoon in a high level game...
He was killed (not by them) and the new clone didn't even know that he had enemies in the party...they got away from a constant war with him simply because he didn't "remember" just how much he had previously HATED THEM BEYOND ALL REASON.
I like the guy and all...but he needs to create a spell called "Mental Transferance" to supplement his Stasis Clone spell...essentially a contingency that transfers his entire current intelligence into whatever clone wakes...basically taking his soul and its mind to the newly awakened body. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 24 Apr 2008 21:44:27 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 21:50:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Both are valid points... But I never even considered the idea of forgotten clones! That's an interesting idea.
Yeah, I hadn't really thought about that either, though a "finding a Manshoon clone" plot line is pretty intriguing.
Dang, I wish I had more time, to write more game, to explore more plots.  |
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Runis Silverhammer
Acolyte
United Kingdom
8 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 22:48:41
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Does anyone have information on what levels these spellcasters might be? I seem to remember the baldur's gate 1 game stating that Elminster was 29th level, that was 2E though, I wonder what he is in 3.5? And what about the others like Blackstaff and Halaster? Obviously these characters are epic, so 21+ minimum..?
I've also always wondered what their spellcraft would be, along with items they might have it's probably way over 100? Unless anyone has a reference to anything like this, i suppose we could only guess.
One last thing...how would we judge 'the most powerful?' What would this be based on? Fame? Battles won? Items? Living the longest? Being supported by various gods? What..? |
"Gygax:The new D&D is too rule intensive. It's relegated the Dungeon Master to being an entertainer rather than master of the game. It's done away with the archetypes, focused on nothing but combat and character power, lost the group cooperative aspect, bastardized the class-based system, and resembles a comic-book superheroes game more than a fantasy RPG where a player can play any alignment desired, not just lawful good. Now, should I tell you what I really think [of it]?" |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 23:36:13
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Some of them have "official stats" though the official stats often include notes to the effect of;
"This person has been developing spells and magics for centuries, they have just about every published spell and a legion of unpublished spells. They also have access to a vast array of magical gear."
Not in those words, but that's the idea.
FRCS has El, the Epic Handbook has him updated and a few others, Lords of Darkness has (what most people think of as an inadequate) Larloch, Champions of Ruin has a few heavy hitters.
And "the most powerful" is totally subjective. Typically we give some mention of why we chose who we did, I chose Larloch because he's intended to be one of the most powerful beings on Toril and given the lore we have about him I just don't think anyone "official" is above him. It'd definitely not a fact though, not even close. |
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turox
Learned Scribe
USA
145 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 23:39:59
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Another powerful wizard that hasn't been mentioned is Sammaster.
Oh and Runis in the FRCS Elminister is stated at level 35. |
Turox Antas Dragonslayer -
"People will believe anything they want to believe, or fear to believe."
Wizard's First Rule: Chapter 36, Page #397, US Hard Cover (revealed by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander).
Explanation by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander: "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. Peoples heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 00:46:22
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| Zalathorm is shortstatted in Shining south as a Diviner 20/Loremaster 4/Halruaan Elder 5 ... and have even though he is human been wizardking since 1262, and still ruling per 1373 (after being slain and ressucted in 1372 |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 00:56:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Runis Silverhammer
One last thing...how would we judge 'the most powerful?' What would this be based on? Fame? Battles won? Items? Living the longest? Being supported by various gods? What..?
Good question...it's always subjective. In terms of both influence *and* magical might, I still think Elminster is tops (or at least close to the top). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 03:57:11
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| And let's not be all humanocentric here - I'd argue strongly for the elven High Mage, Oluevaera Estelda, known as the Srinshee. Older than Karsus (or Larloch, who is still around), with who knows what ties to Mystra and the Seldarine, merely by continuing to exist and holding the Crownblade of Cormanthyr, she embodies the dream of Myth Drannor, and the hope of its eventual restoration. |
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Ecap
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 04:54:47
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| Okay, I know this is going to flag me as a total noob, but who is this Larloch guy? I have heard the name referenced now and then. Does he play a major role in any of the books? |
Sink or Swim |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 05:07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecap
Okay, I know this is going to flag me as a total noob, but who is this Larloch guy? I have heard the name referenced now and then. Does he play a major role in any of the books?
Larloch is a mega-da-powerful lich who has been around for half of forever. He's got 60+ liches under his control. He's the kind of guy who simply defines the words "powerful spellcaster".
Shaaan the Serpent Queen is pretty freakin' powerful, too. She appeared in one of the Wizards Three articles (issue 219 of Dragon), and Krash wrote her up in Volume IV of the Candlekeep Compendium. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 07:20:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecap
Okay, I know this is going to flag me as a total noob, but who is this Larloch guy? I have heard the name referenced now and then. Does he play a major role in any of the books?
I'd recommend you refer to these sources:- Lost Empires of Faerūn, Lords of Darkness, and Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast. As well, see plenty of Ed's replies here at Candlekeep. These are entirely more responsible sources for information regarding Larloch, when compared to just about anything you'll learn online elsewhere.
See also the 'Tears So White' tale from the Realms of the Elves anthology for the "Last Mythal" trilogy.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 07:21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ecap
Okay, I know this is going to flag me as a total noob, but who is this Larloch guy? I have heard the name referenced now and then. Does he play a major role in any of the books?
Larloch is a mega-da-powerful lich who has been around for half of forever. He's got 60+ liches under his control. He's the kind of guy who simply defines the words "powerful spellcaster".
Indeed.
When Ed wrote "He's probably a 46th level evil-aligned wizard right now", he didn't mean "This is Larloch's real definite level", it's a gesture to say "Larloch is extraordinarily dangerous, and in a different league from almost anyone else", just as he's portrayed in every other source.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 12:24:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ecap
Okay, I know this is going to flag me as a total noob, but who is this Larloch guy? I have heard the name referenced now and then. Does he play a major role in any of the books?
Larloch is a mega-da-powerful lich who has been around for half of forever. He's got 60+ liches under his control. He's the kind of guy who simply defines the words "powerful spellcaster".
Shaaan the Serpent Queen is pretty freakin' powerful, too. She appeared in one of the Wizards Three articles (issue 219 of Dragon), and Krash wrote her up in Volume IV of the Candlekeep Compendium.
Interesting where have you read that he has got 60+ liches under his control.. hmm |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 12:52:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
Interesting where have you read that he has got 60+ liches under his control.. hmm
Ed's quotes and the sources Sage referenced. |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2008 : 14:07:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
Interesting where have you read that he has got 60+ liches under his control.. hmm
Ed's quotes and the sources Sage referenced.
That seem wild ahhh  I am speechless. I thought you were making fun, my little hamster.
Can I have a link to this ore see the original text from sage? Plz..
Vic
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Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master
Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.
Links related to Forgotten Realms
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9571
Adventuring / Mercenary Companies / Orders / The chosen from official sources
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11047
Priests in Forgotten Realms.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9609&whichpage=1 |
Edited by - Victor_ograygor on 25 Apr 2008 14:08:57 |
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Topic |
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Most powerful forgotten realms wizards...
